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	<title>Comments on: Which Controversy? Discovery Institute vs Science</title>
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		<title>By: Thanos</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9279</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9279</guid>
		<description>No I am not conceding at all because &quot;Social Darwinism&quot; is not science, it is politics. Now please try again DI shill. Any ill you can point at from Science is not science itself, but rather bad application of it by ignorant people. That was the point of the comments, which you are trying to ellude so you can get to the Ben Stein lie. People lead to killing people, get your mind around that fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><a rel='external nofollow' href='http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress'><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/030f418d0633f044ae4b1cb55b09d836?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></a></span>No I am not conceding at all because &#8220;Social Darwinism&#8221; is not science, it is politics. Now please try again DI shill. Any ill you can point at from Science is not science itself, but rather bad application of it by ignorant people. That was the point of the comments, which you are trying to ellude so you can get to the Ben Stein lie. People lead to killing people, get your mind around that fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Thanos</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9266</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 16:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9266</guid>
		<description>Yes, take your DI shill talking points elsewhere, we&#039;ve been round this circle before. For every single ill you can point out from science, millions and billions of good things can be illustrated. As just one for instance google &quot;Norman Borlaug&quot;, or think about all the diabetics living today who otherwise wouldn&#039;t be, or think on the first stem cell treatments and how many people are alive through bone marrow transplants because that got started in the sixties. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><a rel='external nofollow' href='http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress'><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/030f418d0633f044ae4b1cb55b09d836?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></a></span>Yes, take your DI shill talking points elsewhere, we&#8217;ve been round this circle before. For every single ill you can point out from science, millions and billions of good things can be illustrated. As just one for instance google &#8220;Norman Borlaug&#8221;, or think about all the diabetics living today who otherwise wouldn&#8217;t be, or think on the first stem cell treatments and how many people are alive through bone marrow transplants because that got started in the sixties.</p>
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		<title>By: Thanos</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9251</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9251</guid>
		<description>Typically the people who bring eugenics / race / culture up in these discussions are tribal identists/nationalists/supremacists or Discovery institute shills. The former because they are invested in &quot;being special&quot; because of inherited traits or culture, the latter because they are invested in being special through their beliefs. Neither is wholly true, so if you are trying to get to the Godwinian argument of &quot;science=teh bad because of hitler, or x, y, z,&quot; I&#039;m not going to entertain it, I&#039;ve been on that fallacious merry go round discussion too many times already. Thanks for trying however, keep shilling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><a rel='external nofollow' href='http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress'><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/030f418d0633f044ae4b1cb55b09d836?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></a></span>Typically the people who bring eugenics / race / culture up in these discussions are tribal identists/nationalists/supremacists or Discovery institute shills. The former because they are invested in &#8220;being special&#8221; because of inherited traits or culture, the latter because they are invested in being special through their beliefs. Neither is wholly true, so if you are trying to get to the Godwinian argument of &#8220;science=teh bad because of hitler, or x, y, z,&#8221; I&#8217;m not going to entertain it, I&#8217;ve been on that fallacious merry go round discussion too many times already. Thanks for trying however, keep shilling.</p>
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		<title>By: aNZu</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9248</link>
		<dc:creator>aNZu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9248</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;aNZu: I don’t understand why you are bringing in Eugenics and race at all; pre-scientific tribal peoples practice eugenics, evolutionary biology shows that it doesn’t work as proponents for it claim, and it preceded science. Perhaps You missed the note about Plato’s Republic above.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m bringing in eugenics in response to the note on Plato&#039;s Republic, not because I missed it. Eugenics has not been disproved, although specific disorders that were thought to be inherited (leading to the sterilization of sufferers) have since been shown to be environmental. Eugenics and race are highly salient and related topics to the evolution debate because they highlight the question of just which theories about human nature are permissable, and whether scientists are responsible for the political misuse to which their theories may be put. If Darwin is not responsible for the misuse to which Hitler put his theories, why should scientists like Cvalli-Sforza be held responsible for the appropriation of theories of racial differences by racist groups?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/35b74eaa6a8a20fa00adca423345bf53?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></span><i>aNZu: I don’t understand why you are bringing in Eugenics and race at all; pre-scientific tribal peoples practice eugenics, evolutionary biology shows that it doesn’t work as proponents for it claim, and it preceded science. Perhaps You missed the note about Plato’s Republic above.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m bringing in eugenics in response to the note on Plato&#8217;s Republic, not because I missed it. Eugenics has not been disproved, although specific disorders that were thought to be inherited (leading to the sterilization of sufferers) have since been shown to be environmental. Eugenics and race are highly salient and related topics to the evolution debate because they highlight the question of just which theories about human nature are permissable, and whether scientists are responsible for the political misuse to which their theories may be put. If Darwin is not responsible for the misuse to which Hitler put his theories, why should scientists like Cvalli-Sforza be held responsible for the appropriation of theories of racial differences by racist groups?</p>
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		<title>By: Thanos</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9236</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 07:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9236</guid>
		<description>Science is not a faith no matter how much the DI shills wish to make it so. It&#039;s a method, and a body of knowledge, nothing more, nothing less. 
You have displayed your ignorance once again. &quot;Stupidity&quot; and &quot;Ignorance&quot; are two completely different things, a smart person can be ignorant of where the Islets of Langerhans lie and still have quite a blazing intellect. You can choose to suffocate that intellect in a cage of untested assumptions, or you can learn, your choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><a rel='external nofollow' href='http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress'><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/030f418d0633f044ae4b1cb55b09d836?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></a></span>Science is not a faith no matter how much the DI shills wish to make it so. It&#8217;s a method, and a body of knowledge, nothing more, nothing less.<br />
You have displayed your ignorance once again. &#8220;Stupidity&#8221; and &#8220;Ignorance&#8221; are two completely different things, a smart person can be ignorant of where the Islets of Langerhans lie and still have quite a blazing intellect. You can choose to suffocate that intellect in a cage of untested assumptions, or you can learn, your choice.</p>
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		<title>By: marc</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9226</link>
		<dc:creator>marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 04:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9226</guid>
		<description>Thanos, I am not making &quot;sweeping&quot; assertions. I am making a single assertion, which you don&#039;t agree with but I still believe to be true - namely, the claim that science, the institution, can eradicate its problem with the Religious Right by taking the time and trouble to understand why people have lost faith in that thing we collectively call &quot;science&quot;.

My criticism has enough truth in it to be worth considering, whether you delete it or not.

If you examine the transcripts of the Dover evolution trial, you will see that the witnesses go to a great deal of effort to establish that science is in fact a community, an institution, and that it - the community - has certain norms, standards, beliefs, etc. and therefore has a certain cohesion, a certain power. I make the argument that it is not using its power wisely and well. The arguments I would make, if I had all the time and space to make the arguments in full, would come entirely from science itself. Trust and defection. Social signalling. Ethics and cooperative behavior in evolution. The tragedy of the commons. The problem is not that religion has some appeal that it did not have yesterday. The problem is that science has a credibility problem and that it has lost the public trust.

When you&#039;re ready to change the ways that aren&#039;t working, try not calling everyone who disagrees with you stupid. I don&#039;t like being diagnosed, which is one reason I distrust scientific types: too many people who are eager to classify me (always for my own good, of course!)

Just FYI, I am pro-science and pro-evolution. I have little faith in scientific creation stories (big bang) or apocalypse (singularity) or stories explaining our reason for being (which presuppose that the only data that matters is that which is currently observable) - all of those things are articles of faith, beyond what our current data can tell us. Science was better when it was open-minded in its search for truth. But here&#039;s my article of faith: I can&#039;t wait for the day when science replaces ockham&#039;s razor with &quot;first, do no harm&quot;. It will be the death of Christianity and the single greatest thing that ever happened to human rights in the world all in one blow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/02697497c2425155b1447607e4f8970e?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></span>Thanos, I am not making &#8220;sweeping&#8221; assertions. I am making a single assertion, which you don&#8217;t agree with but I still believe to be true &#8211; namely, the claim that science, the institution, can eradicate its problem with the Religious Right by taking the time and trouble to understand why people have lost faith in that thing we collectively call &#8220;science&#8221;.</p>
<p>My criticism has enough truth in it to be worth considering, whether you delete it or not.</p>
<p>If you examine the transcripts of the Dover evolution trial, you will see that the witnesses go to a great deal of effort to establish that science is in fact a community, an institution, and that it &#8211; the community &#8211; has certain norms, standards, beliefs, etc. and therefore has a certain cohesion, a certain power. I make the argument that it is not using its power wisely and well. The arguments I would make, if I had all the time and space to make the arguments in full, would come entirely from science itself. Trust and defection. Social signalling. Ethics and cooperative behavior in evolution. The tragedy of the commons. The problem is not that religion has some appeal that it did not have yesterday. The problem is that science has a credibility problem and that it has lost the public trust.</p>
<p>When you&#8217;re ready to change the ways that aren&#8217;t working, try not calling everyone who disagrees with you stupid. I don&#8217;t like being diagnosed, which is one reason I distrust scientific types: too many people who are eager to classify me (always for my own good, of course!)</p>
<p>Just FYI, I am pro-science and pro-evolution. I have little faith in scientific creation stories (big bang) or apocalypse (singularity) or stories explaining our reason for being (which presuppose that the only data that matters is that which is currently observable) &#8211; all of those things are articles of faith, beyond what our current data can tell us. Science was better when it was open-minded in its search for truth. But here&#8217;s my article of faith: I can&#8217;t wait for the day when science replaces ockham&#8217;s razor with &#8220;first, do no harm&#8221;. It will be the death of Christianity and the single greatest thing that ever happened to human rights in the world all in one blow.</p>
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		<title>By: Thanos</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9223</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9223</guid>
		<description>Also Marc, who do you think the &quot;parasites&quot; are? The billions of people that Norman Borglaur kept from starving through genetically improved crops?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><a rel='external nofollow' href='http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress'><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/030f418d0633f044ae4b1cb55b09d836?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></a></span>Also Marc, who do you think the &#8220;parasites&#8221; are? The billions of people that Norman Borglaur kept from starving through genetically improved crops?</p>
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		<title>By: Thanos</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9222</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9222</guid>
		<description>Marc: I would normally just delete your comment because it&#039;s full of sweeping assertions unbacked by reality and full of generalized ignorance. Instead I will let it stand to illustrate the neo-luddite mentality that Ben Stein boiled down to : &quot;Science leads to killing people.&quot;

You are obviously fearful of knowledge, and perhaps need to go live in your own little garden where you can feed your T-rex lettuce. 

Science is a body of knowledge and theory, it can be applied well or applied poorly. Science can&#039;t be good or evil, only people can. Science gets mis-applied when people are ignorant, it leads to good things when people are not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><a rel='external nofollow' href='http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress'><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/030f418d0633f044ae4b1cb55b09d836?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></a></span>Marc: I would normally just delete your comment because it&#8217;s full of sweeping assertions unbacked by reality and full of generalized ignorance. Instead I will let it stand to illustrate the neo-luddite mentality that Ben Stein boiled down to : &#8220;Science leads to killing people.&#8221;</p>
<p>You are obviously fearful of knowledge, and perhaps need to go live in your own little garden where you can feed your T-rex lettuce. </p>
<p>Science is a body of knowledge and theory, it can be applied well or applied poorly. Science can&#8217;t be good or evil, only people can. Science gets mis-applied when people are ignorant, it leads to good things when people are not.</p>
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		<title>By: Thanos</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9221</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9221</guid>
		<description>aNZu: I don&#039;t understand why you are bringing in Eugenics and race at all; pre-scientific tribal peoples practice eugenics, evolutionary biology shows that it doesn&#039;t work as proponents for it claim, and it preceded science. Perhaps You missed the note about Plato&#039;s Republic above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><a rel='external nofollow' href='http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress'><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/030f418d0633f044ae4b1cb55b09d836?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></a></span>aNZu: I don&#8217;t understand why you are bringing in Eugenics and race at all; pre-scientific tribal peoples practice eugenics, evolutionary biology shows that it doesn&#8217;t work as proponents for it claim, and it preceded science. Perhaps You missed the note about Plato&#8217;s Republic above.</p>
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		<title>By: aNZu</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9217</link>
		<dc:creator>aNZu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9217</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Neither politics nor religion belong in science, and contrary to the love of Euros for technocracy, science does not belong in politics.&lt;/i&gt;

This is true (although political policies should certainly be informed by science), however what about scientific ideas that can have devastating political and moral consequences (e.g. theories of racial differences). It is easy to dismiss these theories as &quot;pseudoscience&quot; and therefore irrelevant, but that is simply too convenient: whether this or that theory happens to be true there are inevitably going to be scientific facts that can be used to justify immoral politics. The problem with eugenics is not that it is based around poor science (it isn&#039;t), but that regardless of the science behind it, it is incompatible with individual rights.

The question is whether we have the willingness to concede that those advocating evil policies have the scientific facts on their side and resolve to fight them entirely on moral terms, or is it simpler to try and head them off at the past and claim that their science is bogus (a &quot;white&quot; lie)?

A lot of anti-racist campaigners attack the notion that race is even a scientifically meaningful concept, reasoning that if race is undermined as a concept then any political ideology based on it will also be compromised. Unfortunately, statistical analysis seems to show that &quot;race&quot; really does exist (albeit merely as a form of statistically significant genetic clustering). Google &quot;Lewontin&#039;s Fallacy&quot;. This doesn&#039;t mean that racism is justified (a category error, since a moral conclusion can not be wrung from an empirical fact) but it does make it easier for racialists to gain a foothold. This leads us to the issue that underlies Darwinism versus Creationism: do the political/social consequences of a scientific idea count against its legitimacy? If you answer &quot;no&quot; in the case of Darwinism, do you not have to answer the same way where race is concerned?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/35b74eaa6a8a20fa00adca423345bf53?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></span><i>Neither politics nor religion belong in science, and contrary to the love of Euros for technocracy, science does not belong in politics.</i></p>
<p>This is true (although political policies should certainly be informed by science), however what about scientific ideas that can have devastating political and moral consequences (e.g. theories of racial differences). It is easy to dismiss these theories as &#8220;pseudoscience&#8221; and therefore irrelevant, but that is simply too convenient: whether this or that theory happens to be true there are inevitably going to be scientific facts that can be used to justify immoral politics. The problem with eugenics is not that it is based around poor science (it isn&#8217;t), but that regardless of the science behind it, it is incompatible with individual rights.</p>
<p>The question is whether we have the willingness to concede that those advocating evil policies have the scientific facts on their side and resolve to fight them entirely on moral terms, or is it simpler to try and head them off at the past and claim that their science is bogus (a &#8220;white&#8221; lie)?</p>
<p>A lot of anti-racist campaigners attack the notion that race is even a scientifically meaningful concept, reasoning that if race is undermined as a concept then any political ideology based on it will also be compromised. Unfortunately, statistical analysis seems to show that &#8220;race&#8221; really does exist (albeit merely as a form of statistically significant genetic clustering). Google &#8220;Lewontin&#8217;s Fallacy&#8221;. This doesn&#8217;t mean that racism is justified (a category error, since a moral conclusion can not be wrung from an empirical fact) but it does make it easier for racialists to gain a foothold. This leads us to the issue that underlies Darwinism versus Creationism: do the political/social consequences of a scientific idea count against its legitimacy? If you answer &#8220;no&#8221; in the case of Darwinism, do you not have to answer the same way where race is concerned?</p>
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		<title>By: marc</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9212</link>
		<dc:creator>marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:53:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9212</guid>
		<description>The real problem here is that science was once granted great respect and authority and credibility, and threw it all away. 

Forget attacking the religious. Science needs to get its squandered credibility back. As soon as it does, the religious people become irrelevant. But as long as science ignores why people are &quot;voting with their feet&quot;, the problem will continue to grow. 

All those grand promises science made? Instead of curing disease, we still die - but now we&#039;re alone and without dignity, in a ridiculous little hospital gown, in a cold industrial room. Instead of feeding the world, our food supply is tainted and untrustworthy. Drug company profits are soaring but our drugged kids aren&#039;t thriving. Marriage counseling doesn&#039;t save marriage.

The scientific community likes to claim credit for miracles, but it acts like the unintended consequences arising from those miracles &quot;just happened&quot;. Drug resistant TB? Global warming? Traffic jams? Pollution? Can&#039;t imagine where THOSE came from! 

Credibility starts with listening to all the people who are screaming at the top of their lungs that they do not like the decisions being made by &quot;experts&quot; on their behalf. 

If people do not want to eat engineered foods, maybe it&#039;s worth actually considering that people have a right to care about what they put in their mouth. The one trying to change the world should always be the one who carries the burden of establishing trust. (I personally changed my mind about whether &quot;food engineering&quot; people could be trusted when someone started adding chemicals to beef, to keep it red even after it goes bad.)

And even when science does seem to know what it&#039;s doing, it seems to be putting all that knowledge and technology to use helping the parasites instead of making the world better. Science likes to pretend it has no moral responsibilities, but let me ask you, are these drugs really safe for kids? Are the economists really helping America stay economically strong? If scientists can&#039;t be expected to provide us with the truth, who can?

Science needs to either stop pretending it has the right to make ethical decisions (for instance, having an opinion on who or what does or does not qualify as &quot;human&quot;), or it needs to start taking that ethical responsibility seriously, and stop arguing OTOH that ethics is somehow outside the realm of science, as if science were merely about gathering data. If science is merely about gathering data, then scientists aren&#039;t qualified to make ethical determinations. If scientists want to be treated as having more clout than ordinary citizens, then they can&#039;t be amoral anymore - they have to understand and accept that the power of science cannot be allowed to do harm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/02697497c2425155b1447607e4f8970e?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></span>The real problem here is that science was once granted great respect and authority and credibility, and threw it all away. </p>
<p>Forget attacking the religious. Science needs to get its squandered credibility back. As soon as it does, the religious people become irrelevant. But as long as science ignores why people are &#8220;voting with their feet&#8221;, the problem will continue to grow. </p>
<p>All those grand promises science made? Instead of curing disease, we still die &#8211; but now we&#8217;re alone and without dignity, in a ridiculous little hospital gown, in a cold industrial room. Instead of feeding the world, our food supply is tainted and untrustworthy. Drug company profits are soaring but our drugged kids aren&#8217;t thriving. Marriage counseling doesn&#8217;t save marriage.</p>
<p>The scientific community likes to claim credit for miracles, but it acts like the unintended consequences arising from those miracles &#8220;just happened&#8221;. Drug resistant TB? Global warming? Traffic jams? Pollution? Can&#8217;t imagine where THOSE came from! </p>
<p>Credibility starts with listening to all the people who are screaming at the top of their lungs that they do not like the decisions being made by &#8220;experts&#8221; on their behalf. </p>
<p>If people do not want to eat engineered foods, maybe it&#8217;s worth actually considering that people have a right to care about what they put in their mouth. The one trying to change the world should always be the one who carries the burden of establishing trust. (I personally changed my mind about whether &#8220;food engineering&#8221; people could be trusted when someone started adding chemicals to beef, to keep it red even after it goes bad.)</p>
<p>And even when science does seem to know what it&#8217;s doing, it seems to be putting all that knowledge and technology to use helping the parasites instead of making the world better. Science likes to pretend it has no moral responsibilities, but let me ask you, are these drugs really safe for kids? Are the economists really helping America stay economically strong? If scientists can&#8217;t be expected to provide us with the truth, who can?</p>
<p>Science needs to either stop pretending it has the right to make ethical decisions (for instance, having an opinion on who or what does or does not qualify as &#8220;human&#8221;), or it needs to start taking that ethical responsibility seriously, and stop arguing OTOH that ethics is somehow outside the realm of science, as if science were merely about gathering data. If science is merely about gathering data, then scientists aren&#8217;t qualified to make ethical determinations. If scientists want to be treated as having more clout than ordinary citizens, then they can&#8217;t be amoral anymore &#8211; they have to understand and accept that the power of science cannot be allowed to do harm.</p>
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		<title>By: pre-Boomer Marine brat</title>
		<link>http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/century-of-freedom/which-controversy-discovery-institute-vs-science/comment-page-1/#comment-9211</link>
		<dc:creator>pre-Boomer Marine brat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?page_id=2934#comment-9211</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this, Thanos</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class='eg-image' style='float:right; margin-left:10px; display:block; width:64px' ><img alt='' src='http://www.gravatar.com/avatar/e2e8ce5d1733c528b945b461ab59836d?s=64&amp;d=http%3A%2F%2Fuse.perl.org%2Fimages%2Fpix.gif%3Fs%3D64&amp;r=PG' class='avatar avatar-64 photo' height='64' width='64' /></span>Thanks for this, Thanos</p>
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